Re: dylan revival

[address@hidden]

On Tuesday, April 2, 2002, at 01:00 PM, marc wrote:

> - new devices (e.g. symbian-os based smart-phones) open a new
> mass-market

Possibly Marlais is small enough to fit on a mobile device? I don't know 
how low we can get the footprint of an OODL with multiple dispatch and 
GC.

> - microsofts clr-platform allows language diversitivity

In theory. In practice you'll get the same fearful looks from clients 
when you mention you'll be programming .NET in Lisp as you do when you 
mention that you'll be programming Windows in Lisp.

> - establish as best in class environment for emerging WebServices
> world

We have XML, XML-RPC, a web page system and a Web Server available, as 
well as database access libraries and (on Functional Developer) COM and 
CORBA. We just need more people using them. :-)

> the main problem of dylan IMHO is the 'unavailability' of dylan
> compilers and VMs. So:

There are two Dylan compilers available and two Dylan interpreters as 
well. This is more than most languages. :-)

Functional Developer is at http://www.fun-o.com/
d2c and Mindy are at http://www.gwydiondylan.org/
Marlais is at http://www.sourceforge.net/marlais

Dylan is designed to compile to native code. There is a Dylan VM for the 
"Mindy" system that is part of Gwydion Dylan, but this does not support 
macros and is not being updated.

> - develop a simple and lightweight dylan-to-c compiler

Dylan is a complex language to compile, so I don't know that a simple or 
lightweight Dylan compiler is possible. Gwydion's d2c certainly isn't 
simple or lightweight but it does compile Dylan to C and it runs on all 
major Unices as well as MacOSX, BeOS and Windows.

> - develop a dylan-to-clr compiler (knowing that clr is quite
> unapropriate for a closure and generic-function based langauge like
> dylan)

CLR is going to be a major time and resource waster for languages that 
cannot compete with VB and C-hash in terms of FUD and lock-in. Dylan 
would do much better to side with Apache and open web services.

> and try to target the following OSs:
>
> - Windows XP, Stinger

Dylan is already on Windows with the Functional Developer IDE from 
Functional Objects. Gwydion Dylan also works on Windows.

> - Linux

Gwydion is available for Linux and Functional Developer is in alpha on 
Linux.

> - OS X

Gwydion runs on MacOS X. A d2c CodeWarrior plugin is available.

> -> Symbian OS v7.0

I can't help there. Anyone? :-)

> 3.) language
>
> - factoring of the dylan library into configurations and profiles (as
> in J2ME) for small devices.

This is an interesting idea. The main problem with implementing Dylan is 
the Macro system. I've been toying with the idea of a macro-less "Dylan 
Light" for Marlais and Mindy.
The basic Dylan libraries are well defined. On top of this there are the 
common-dylan libraries, and on top of those goes DUIM (Dylan's interface 
manager, like Lisp's CLIM or Java's AWT). Socket libraries, ODBC, COM, 
CORBA, OpenGL, XML, etc. can be added as needed.

> 4.) politics
>
> - try to get the support from a well known company (e.g. HP, Apple,
> IBM, ...)

This ain't gonna happen. :-) Apple dumped Dylan in the mid-1990s and are 
unlikely to re-support it. Other major companies will avoid it for this 
reason.

> - involve universities for a dylan-to-clr project and get fundings
> from M$ for that

This is not the best focus for Dylan. MIT has a lot of Dylan talent 
in-house ( :-) ) and some courses have been taught using Dylan in the US 
and Oz. Focusing these resources on CLR would destroy Dylan rather than 
give it a boost.

> I think that the time is right for dylan to become a more prominent
> player in the field. The
> language has everything required to tackle the complex programming
> tasks in the upcoming
> ubiquitious computing world.

I agree. I think we need to use the tools we have rather than wish we 
had new ones, though. Yahoo was programmed in Lisp. We need an 
equivalent example for Dylan that will help convince both hackers and 
suits that Dylan gives them a competitive advantage.

- Rob.